Transcript of Isabel Nisbet on the Today Programme
Monday, 16 August 2010 15:57
The Today Programme, BBC Radio 4.
7.50am, Monday, 16th August 2010.
Listen to this interview online.
John Humphrys, presenter: One of the big debates in education over the past few years is whether exams are rigorous enough, are they too easy?
In particular is it too easy to get an A at A-level? Well, this year’s A-level results are out on Thursday and they’ll be different: there will be an A* grade for the first time. The idea is that it’ll make it easier for universities to choose the very best students. Not everyone’s impressed; Roger Murphy is the Professor of Education at Nottingham University.
Roger Murphy, Professor of Education, Nottingham University: I mean, employers and universities, if they are worried about making choices between students, should not just keep looking at the exam system and asking for more and more from it; it’s going to be limited in what it can tell them. If there’s more information they want, if there’s more detailed questions that they want answers to, I don’t think you’re going to find that through A* or A***, I think they need to actually look at other information, some of which the schools can provide, some of which they need to get themselves by putting students through, you know, interviews or procedures that they determine are relevant to the choices they’re making.
JH: Well, Isabel Nisbet is the chief executive of Ofqual, the exam regulator. Good morning to you.
Isabel Nisbet, Chief Executive, Ofqual: Good morning.
JH: Why are you doing it?
IN: We’re doing it so that there’s a clear way that the exceptional students can show their exceptional achievement in that A-level subject, and the universities asked for a way to discriminate against that.
Roger is quite right, it’s not the only source of evidence about a student, but it is a very good indicator of how well they did at the curriculum for that A-level.
JH: But we managed without A*s for a very long time, why do we need them now?
IN: Well, we did it but students are doing better and better, and that is because they’re being better taught and the achievement has been higher and higher, and the idea that there should be an opportunity for able students to show their exceptional ability is part of the changes to the A-level this year. Because not just is there an A*, but also there’s going to be more opportunities for stretch and challenge in the A2 papers, the most difficult papers, for the exceptional students to show their ability.
JH: You say they’re being better taught. That’s always possible, of course; it’s equally possible that teachers 10 years ago were just as good, or 20 or 30 years ago, were just as good as teachers today, perhaps they were better, who knows, but that it’s different now in the sense that either the exams are easier, and you’ve heard that criticism many times of course, or that teachers are teaching for the exam, full stop.
IN: Well, it’s probably a mixture of everything. There’s no question…
JH: Oh so you’d concede that maybe the exams are easier?
IN: No, I’m not conceding that, what I’m saying is that there is evidence that teachers are teaching in a very targeted way to assist their students for doing well in their exams.
JH: That’s not good, is it?
IN: Well, I… it’s good because it helps the students to show their ability, and the point for this year… the point…
JH: No it helps… sorry to interrupt you there, but it helps the student to pass the exam, it doesn’t necessarily help to show their overall ability, does it?
IN: No, what teachers are doing, and they’re doing very well, is to support the students in developing their talents and developing their abilities, and showing that in the exam; and the important thing this year – you’re hearing all today of all the competition there is for university places – is that those who have got an A* will have been fairly judged in a really tough exam, and they’ll be really proud of that, and where there’s competition – we’re hearing there’s seven people for every one place – those who have got that indicator will know that it’s been fairly granted and that they’ve been fairly judged against those who took another exam board or those from another school, and that’s hugely important for these young people this week.
JH: But it must worry you that some universities, including I think Oxford, are saying no, we’re not going to be impressed by this.
IN: Well this is the first year of a new indicator and nobody’s saying that it’s the only thing, it’s not a magic wand, but it is a piece of very important information for the universities to use. Some are saying they’re going to wait till the second year or the third year to use it and that’s a matter for them, but it’s fair and it’s rigorous and it’s tough.
JH: But why could you not simply have kept A-levels and made them more difficult? So that then if you do get an A-level the university would know.
IN: What they’ve done this year, and this is the culmination of many years of development, is that the hardest bit of the A-level is going to give these students a chance to show their exceptional ability, but those who would have got an A last year will get an A this year, and those two years of students are competing for the same university places.
JH: It does, though, rather devalue past As at A-level, doesn’t it…
IN: It should not.
JH: …it rather suggests that they’re not what we thought they were worth.
IN: It should not, an A is an A is an A, and those who got an A last year…
JH: Unless it’s an A*.
IN: Those who get an A last year or a B last year will get an A this year and a B this year, and they’re competing for the same places. So that is hugely important to people listening to this programme, but it does not devalue the A. It does mean that those who are getting exceptional achievement will get an exceptional award.
JH: So… sorry we haven’t got very long, but just clear it up for me, I’m not quite sure… who in that case will get the A*?
IN: The A* is for those that get 90%-plus in the most difficult bit of the A-level, that’s the A2, that’s the hardest bit at the end.
JH: They’d have got an A in the past.
IN: They’d have got to have got an A anyway, and then over and above that they’ve got 90%-plus in the most difficult bit and that gets them the A*.
JH: Trouble is next year it might be two A*s or three A*s or something.
IN: Well, let’s see.
JH: Right, OK.
IN: Thank you.
JH: Thank you very much indeed, Isabel Nisbet.
IN: Thank you.
